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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
   |
Posted - 2012.05.03 04:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
Deen Wispa wrote:Regarding LP for FW kills, it would be great if more people involved on the kill would result in less LP per person. Therefore making thing less blobby and enhancing the small gang aspect of FW.
I'm dissapointed to see that docking restrictions is being implemented considering Hans was very opposed to this and voiced it to CCP. And yet CCP is still boneheaded to implement the docking restrictions.
Hate to rain on Hans' parade, but everyone was/is against it. It works in blob-land largely due to sov. being a linchpin for just about anything worth undocking for, numbers (pilots, income, et al) are considerably larger and they are drowning in bubbles and capitals.
BolsterBomb wrote:...FW needs a big "ownership" buff and this is it. By creating a purpose now militia has to work together or suffer together.
Probably what they were thinking when the brain-fart oozed out .. but as with all such things it won't work. That kind of system works if sides are roughly equal (see every FPS made the last ten years) but here the various sides are insanely unbalanced;
On Caldari/Gallente front you have a huge number disparity and no amount of Gallente uber-ness can fight against 4-5x the numbers for a prolonged period of time = Gallente gets to sit in highsec.
On Amarr/Matar front numbers are roughly equal but with very distinct timezones, layout of the area is so immensely in the insurgents favour as to make it a foregone conclusion = Amarr gets to sit in highsec after a long but ultimately futile fight.
And that is before taking into account the potential abuse by null-monkeys .. enlist an alt corp, dump all their LP into a few systems and use it as the alliances private FarmVille, blob the snot out of anything threatening it (neutrals are to get full benefit of upgrades apparently  ).
Station lock-out will break infinitely more than it will solve, but since it is probably merely a tick-box in the database it doesn't require work to implement and is thus highly favoured in Iceland 
Mechael wrote:How many pilots in this dedicated core? And if that's true, then nobody should be here complaining about how they're about to get kicked out of their home station. Clearly grinding down that bunker isn't a problem.
Enough to be able to outblob any opposition in the high-value plexes .. can be anywhere from 5-50 depending on timezone/holidays/activity. Station ping-pong was among one of the most hated things in the old null sov system, now we get to experience its revival.
By the way, since we already have LP-for-Kills and they mention it as a feature I take it the amount will be bumped significantly .. prep your alts for exploitation. With LP scored by repeatedly killing an alt and the LP raked in ninja capping plexes in the ass-end of the universe the navy market is guaranteed to be at its current level (ie. rock-bottom) well into next year.
PS: CCP has not managed to make a single change to FW without introducing one or more at times crippling bugs, so be on the lookout for hilarity such as the classic cloaking capture, victims getting LP for dying, stations firing on people rather than just locking them out, sovereignty inadvertently changing rather than occupancy etc.
Personally love when FW gets "fixed" as it means I get to be bug-hunter for a week!  |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 16:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Raw Lock-out remains a **** poor idea even with the slower occupancy flips. The removal of all services in hostile station accomplishes the same but cuts down on the drop/join corp and alt juggling that will ensue.
Now if they wanted to really make it fancy, then access would be determined by VP in pool so that system tug-o-war scenarios could play themselves out .. at ~50/50 both sides have access to everything but as pool starts tilting towards one the opposition gradually loses access with docking being the last to go.
That way an offensive into 'virgin' territory requires a minimum of say 15% VP for docking to be enabled, reinfrocing the offensive and driving casualties skywards.
But they probably don't have a data-base tick box that says "fancy solution" so guess it will remain a wet dream
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:Got my ships locked in a station? Now it'll take five times as long to get them back. Maybe won't bother spending a a week grinding. I'll just quit FW and go on as before.
Why quit when we can probably still ninja-cap plexes at will thus making tons of money at zero risk .. less risk than bomber missions even! Sure, they claim to want to sort out the NPCs but I'll believe that when I see it so free ISK and farmers in stabbed frigs galore!
By the by (Q. for you SiSi'es), what have they multiplied the LP-for-Kills with? How exploitable is it going to be? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 17:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:If you watch the Fan Fest presentation, you'll notice the plan is to put LP store prices on a sliding scale based on Factional success....
Will probably be based on systems held as that is the single most 'unfair' method from an Amarr PoV (less systems, bottlenecks everywhere in minnie space etc.)
"Blob the crap out of the enemy for a fortnight and get 50% off in LP store. better missions rewards, cheaper everything and more stuff in general! .."
Null is FUBAR .. come Summer, FW is FUBAR 
Has CCP given any indication as to how they plan on avoiding the inevitable snowball from starting up where one or two militias take over everything .. the datacore crap won't work as one gets LP for everything so even with no space held one can ninja-plex more than enough to feed the market.
PS: CCP, revise the Amarr/Matar theatre damnit .. you did geography magic at launch for Caldari, now finish what you started! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.03 19:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:..I however knew the free ride was going to end...
So any idea when that will happen? Sure as hell isn't with this grand FW fix round .. "winners" can chain missions same as now and reap even higher payouts thanks to discounts based on militia performance while losers can chain plexes in ass-end systems (aka. ninja-plexing) and pull roughly half of what is currently possible going full mission whoring (assuming average mission is 5-10minutes incl. transit).
Free ride is alive and well and with neutrals benefiting from "our" work the worst case scenario is FW becoming a massive farm fest .. upside of course is that there is a good chance of this system creating some pit-stop systems manufacturing wise so that the denizens of bore-sec won't have to Titan bridge quite so far for their quafe 
On the whole the changes are as poorly thought out as almost all the other 'fixes' we have been graced with over the years combined
|
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 06:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...FFS, neutral hauler alts have been a way of life for FW pilots for god knows how long ... And than one day, using a neutral alt become this "ZOMG HARDCORE CONSEQUENCE LIFE JUST ISNT WORTH LIVING"...
Neutral use has been and will always be a part of daily for some (as a lol-RP'er rules, regulations, ethics, morals etc. has denied me the pleasure ).
The problem with it is not the neutral use, it is CCP moving it from representing convenience to being a necessity for anything to get done .. they shouted loudly from their high horse that they are loathe to dictate how we play the game, yet ..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...Putting more pilots in space to shoot and be shot at is exactly what we've been trying to achieve!!...
Allow me to quote myself, because I am so awesome
Quote:Now if they wanted to really make it fancy, then access would be determined by VP in pool so that system tug-o-war scenarios could play themselves out .. at ~50/50 both sides have access to everything but as pool starts tilting towards one the opposition gradually loses access with docking being the last to go.
That way an offensive into 'virgin' territory requires a minimum of say 15% VP for docking to be enabled, reinforcing the offensive and driving casualties skywards.
Achieves exactly the same "pilots in space", but without force-feeding turds to sides that are chronically outgunned/outmanned plus puts pressure on both sides to stay vigilant = even MOAR! pilots in space.
X Gallentius wrote:Hrett wrote:This. The one thing that would be most helpful if you count things like sov, and its left out? Having cyno jammers in low sec would be game breaking because it would limit the use of super capital fleets in a few low sec systems.
Remove super-immunity when they are within the borders of Empire space and put severe restrictions on ability to bridge into said space, not out though as the Empires surely has no qualms about letting people run away from them.
PS: Cyno-jammers in their current implementation are for lazies if you ask me. They should allow cyno's, but with a hard limit to what can come through (think WW2 AAA shredding a para-drop or artillery pounding a beach landing) ..
Edit: Trololololol, just logged in and last nights uncontested Kourm is now one of Shakor's internment camps .. Goddess I love CCP last fix to plexing soooooo much!  |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
75
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 14:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Naah, Shakor's butt monkeys will be in good shape even if we take and hold everything up to Dal .. there is access to Amarr FW space directly from Gallente space and the Amak high-sec path is pretty much ideally situated .. only downside of that one is the lack of station next door to Amak (if I remember correctly) but its a hop-and-a-skip to Rens so 'meh'.
Changes will revitalize ninja plexing in a big way and condense fighting even more than the infini-plex change did .. FW will by and large be the poorer for it .. the whole thing reeks of CCP either lacking anything remotely resembling a vision for FW or being bent over by null interests.
And that is it from me until the blogs come 'round. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
77
|
Posted - 2012.05.04 18:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...Some good points here. First, to address X GallentiusGÇÖ concerns that the attacker will need 23/7 coverage to take a system, because the LP incentives will guarantee aggressive defense of plexes...
Why do blobs/blocs/nap-lists exist do you reckon? No one in their right mind (ie. not insane/psychotic/masochistic) enjoys losing their ships/fights again and again even if said losses are redeemed 100%.
We 'huddle up' in blobs/blocs/nap-lists mainly to avoid losing streaks going on forever, it is the old flock/pack mentality (older than civilization itself) so how the hell can you possibly think that it suddenly stops applying?
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:They gain the benefits of the upgrade systems, but they canGÇÖt farm plex LP at that point, they can only run missions or kill invaders...
We have had two plus years of people getting more than enough from farming missions, so much so that missions for non-farmers have become useless .. unless missions are nerfed into the ground (which is never going to happen) the loss of what amounts to an extra income source will go entirely unnoticed to a dominating side.
If missions are nerfed severely, then my guess is that we will have corps joining their alts into opposing milita - spend afk time defensive plexing and reaping LP with mains (think the week long Caldari standings-abuse showcase a few years back) ... we players (read: everyone but me, obviously ) will and consistently do abuse the slightest gap in CCP's train of thought and this coming expansion has gaps large enough to fit my Providence through!
BolsterBomb wrote: I think if you fight "front line" battles you will lose out on the sovereignty. I believe there are better strategies that will help split the battles up and then combine for large engagements to ultimately flip the system (bunker bust)
[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]Bolster Bomb is pointing out that a single blob mentality will be limited in its ability to defend against a large territory over a long period of time...
This is assuming that CCP manages to balance the plexes to a point where solo/duo capping becomes impossible .. current modus operandi that I have observed (both sides) when numbers are in ones favour is to have main group/gang/fleet kill initial troublesome spawn/manage aggro and then leave capping to redundant pilot/ship freeing up remainder to suppress/kill any attempt to stop it.
So you are right, nothing is changing here. Raw numbers will trump everything else with only one-shot gimmicks (like the Gallente smartbomb thingie on YouTube) breaking the trend.
Do you really want to participate in FW when you are rewarded for, nay required to multi-account/dual-box just to compete?
Still missing data, but had to point out the lapses in your logic, main whines to come when I have digested the promised blogs .. naturally hope I won't have to, but CCP has not exactly shown that they have any idea of what the hell FW is and seem to go by what their precious metrics/models tell them.
PS: Hans, we all know and love the mad scientist CCP Dr.EyjoG and his breakdown of the market numbers .. but what CCP could really use is an anthropologist, psychologist or similar to help them come to terms with that most elusive creature called human nature. Please forward my suggestion through channels, thank you  |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.05 04:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...By resetting Sov, everyone has a fair chance, and if one faction gets crushed after that, its their own fault, not the fault of the mechanical changes..
No, by resetting occupancy you are resetting occupancy, fairness doesn't factor in to it.
If fairness is the goal then no major mechanics changes should be implemented without first addressing the stupidly lopsided NPC balance, geographical balance and the base plexing mechanic (orbiting is not all its cracked up to be).
Sometime down the road we might get NPC reblanced, but I frankly doubt they can/will do as promised and use some incursion stuff for it .. so as far as I am concerned FW is over. All my stuff (3 years of collecting adds up!) is spread out in border systems which will be the first to drop as Minnies keep the easy mode captures done by single frigs, have numerical superiority in just about all TZ and never be more than 5-6 minutes from major reinforcements thanks to geography (you should try offensive plexing as Amarr in the minnie backwater .. takes forever to even get there for Goddess sake!).
I do take a little pleasure in knowing that due to these facts, the Shakorite's will be drowning in LP for the first several months so all their LP store goods will be utterly worthless
Either CCP resets and moves stuff to nearest border or they contact each and every person with stuff in locked out systems to hear where they'd like it teleported to .. would the CCP you know do the former or the latter?
BolsterBomb wrote:Because blob warefare pawns all amirite
If you knew anything about organized plexing, then yes blobbing truly does "pawn all". Only way for that to change is to make some pretty drastic changes to the plexing mechanics themselves which I don't think will happen in the foreseeable future.
By the way, all the "Yay .. we are not invisible, lets have scraps for supper!" people who embraced the idiocy of 6-7 hrs flips in December used your exact arguments .. "when plexes are everywhere, all the time the blob won't work" .. guess what ...
Want to eradicate the blob (most of it anyway)?:
Change;
- Introduce poison-pills to all mission plexes (just because, and needed for ..)
- Remove any and all automatically spawning plexes, replace with player generated sites (has pills, remember? )
- Introduce useful strategic feedback in militia interface (ie. systems under attack messages)
Result;
- Attacker can't park a blob in a central location and have satellite crews capping plexes in adjacent systems because by the time they arrive the plex is gone.
- Ninja plexing is obsoleted, and
- Time spent becomes equivalent of benefit (zero LP for defender, so zero time). |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 06:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:the amarr are perfectly capable of getting a blob together and doing anything they want. the difference is that we've stuck with (and worked) the grind much harder than them. ..
This is a troll, surely. Have you tried plexing as one of the good guys, aka. Amarr? Where you can offensive plex with single frigs we need entire bloody fleets to counter the TP/Missile spam of the Mime NPCs in order to keep same speed as you lot.
At any rate, the massive imbalances in the current (and coming) system has turned most of Amarr off the entire thing which is why there hasn't been much of anything going on since the infini-plex change. What is the point of dedicating 200+ man hours (small gang for ~7 hrs) to flip a system when the enemy can re-flip it with 21 man hours (3 frigs for ~7 hrs)?
Not resetting is like allowing a single person to use a bicycle for a marathon and then keeping his world shattering record for all time .. and yes, the difference in "ease of plexing" is that pronounced.
Solution to defence LP issue:
Make it sliding scale, the closer one is to ones desired outcome (decontest for defence, vulnerable/flip for offence) the fewer LP one gets.
For Defense: Doing the rounds and resetting lightly contested systems would be worth it but barely, the big payout would be in systems near flipping where enemy is strongest (only if major changes to balance is made though).
For Offense: Big carrot is the flip which is also to yield LP (anyone else having issues with the LP flood they are planning?), so the decreasing ticks for plexes should act as motivation for the "last push" (synergy with defence above).
(For CCP) Hoping for answers to following in blogs:
- Are we still going to grind static EHP for flips by the way, or will it be 'automatic' once VP pool overflows?
- Are we going to have some indicator other than the highly inaccurate blob on map as to status of VP pool?
- Are missions getting nerfed to eradicate the perpetual bomber free-loaders .. they are going to be like locusts, swarming between militias that are doing well and thus get increased payouts.
- Are navy NPC's getting balanced as promised, or will it be at a later date?
- Will map on Amarr/Shakorite front be tweaked to 'even things out' as was done with addition of Black Rise at launch?
- Will plex access restrictions be tweaked to disallow pirate hulls which are punching far above their weightclass?
- With retraction of discount on LP for navy hulls, will they be made exclusive to FW or do we still have to compete with the high-sec bots (even if there is a person, repetition dulls the mind turning him/her into a bot so Hah!)?
Probably more, but Civ4 beckons. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 07:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Oh thats right we got our act together. :P
Yeah, there was a brief spurt of activity when infini-plex changes came around, but it died out when people were reminded of the imbalance .. ie. Mimes needing only 10-15% effort to undo whatever is done.
Andiedeath wrote:Nope not a troll and completely true, but out of interest I'm going to set up and try it in an alt and let you know. If its unbalanced then ccp should fix by rebalancing the NPCs, if not... well... no more needed to be said.
You could just ask one of the old timers around your parts, but by all means test it .. the awakening will be all the more abrupt. Looking forward to seeing you under the "Balance FW!" banners |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Almity wrote:.. If we can't dock, resupply, or repair what can we do? Focus on one size plex? Only try to flip systems next to one we own?
Naah, we set up shop in Kour, Kam and Lamaa .. nice little triangle .. let the mimes take everything else and then make a bazillion LP from offensive plex roams while keeping fighting in those three systems (or while out with carrier).
Since we'd be "losing" the only LP on market would be ours as mission whores are removed from equation (no stations) providing a massive Amarr LP deficit so we can literally write our own cheques by cornering more markets than I can count
The mimes on the other hand, with no significant offensive plexes available are forced to feed us by defensive plexing or suffer the whines from the locust swarm of mission whores that joined them to get discounts and easy missions.
If CCP insists on using us as guinea pigs for their beloved null-monkeys then I say we game the snot out of whatever we get thus breaking everything they tried doing.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.06 17:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:..Anyway I think it's irrelevant as I see no proof of any sort of sliding LP scale on SISI for the Stores. as Gal MIlitia stores have same costs as Caldari.
They are probably planning on using a system similar to what is in place for mission payouts, so the scale won't start sliding on SiSi at all due to the low number of data points. Hell, when they added it to missions on TQ it took a few weeks (and umpteen thousand missions) to reach its equilibrium. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
78
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 04:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:I'm confused as to why people think it'll make such a big difference. Years ago the public amarr fleets staged out of Tuomuta (in highsec). Nothing here will stop anyone from basing out of highsec and that's a worst case scenario....
By 'years ago' I take it you mean the first 6 months of the war or so because that was the extent of it. Considering that most of us were "scared" of the big bad low-sec when we joined the duration was surprisingly short. Being able to base out of high-sec is a great option especially for new-comers, but creating a system where it becomes the only option in case of a side being outblobbed for a shortish period of time ..
My Wishful Thinking for summer:
- Supers lose their immunity when away from null.
- Titans lose ability to bridge to a location not in null.
- Links are on-grid.
- Most if not all sec. gain is moved to low-sec.
- FW stations lockout enemy until enemy gains a foothold (ie. 10-15% VP) with services becoming available as system goes deeper and deeper into a contested state.
- Defensive plexing is removed or made so fast as to be non-existent (biggest damn waste of time and counter intuitive thing around!).
- NPC's are tweaked so that all sides have approximately same level of difficulty dealing with them.
- NPC's do not interfere when not 'needed' (probably stupidly hard to code without opening door to exploitation).
- Bunker grinds are replaced with live EHP akin to Incursion end 'boss'.
- Pirate hulls are classified as 'one size up' in regards to plex access.
- Missions get poison pills and elite frigs/cruisers included in target pool.
- POS are modular and with security less like a circus tent.
Off to work, toodles. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 12:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hrett wrote:I dont agree with all of this (no defensive plexing? Why?) but the vast majority of these are long overdue.
Simply put, because it is/should be easier to bolt a door than to break it down .. crude analogy perhaps, but fairly accurate.
Also based on assumption that people will act as they have done for years and not actually do much of anything unless critical mass is achieved. In plexing terms (after the 3-5x change is added) that means blobbing the crap out of a system for a few hours and then leaving an alt force/skeleton crew to prevent too much defensive work from succeeding .. almost exact replica of null sov "fights" back in the day (still get ticks thinking of all the damn pos mods I repped up *shudder*).
The only way to discourage the urge to blob is to neuter its effectiveness .. with timers being 'equal' it is possible (and most often used) to have a single semi-mobile blob that comes in to swat anyone interfering with the timer babysitters. Were timers to be 'skewed' with defensive ones taking only 1/5th or less time, the attacked HAS to be 'in force' in each and every plex which removes the blob from the equation quite nicely I should think
Attacking sovereign space should require constant pressure and vigil. It was semi-present at the height of the post-DT plexing era when several systems were held in enemy space .. take a plex anywhere and it could pop elsewhere, was a horror if occupancy was spread out all over the place .
IbanezLaney wrote:Personally I'm looking forward to the changes....
Mission runners will only leave if they have no alternative to make the LP. If NPC balance/Plex mechanics are not addressed there is a high probability that most of them will swap bombers for stabbed interceptors and get LP from plexes instead.
If you were around back when it occurred to people that raising militia rank/standing was a fast track to maxed faction standing and the free Navy BPCs it yielded .. goddamn stabbed mothers were all over the damn place  |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
79
|
Posted - 2012.05.07 13:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:...Even a small force can defend a system if they are willing to use slightly grey tactics, less of a pain than moving 50 odd ships per pilot. Also a reset is basically saying 'you know what you have been fighting over for the last few years?....
The Amarr/Shakorite front has been pretty much static for the entire duration. Been a few weeks/months here and there with pockets being taken and retaken so on the whole we have already fought for nothing .. as trench wars goes it has been pretty much on par.
NB: Since I haven't seen you in space I can only assume you are "new", so consider it an FYI .. ask around if you don't believe a dirty loyalist
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
80
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 03:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dirk Smacker wrote:Hrett wrote:
You can speed tank afk offensive plex too. Hence my suggestion of only giving it to both sides when contested.
Or they could make you clear the npc's in order to cap. But I haven't heard anything about touching the plexes themselves.
Welcome to my personal hell. There will probably only be cosmetic changes to plexes/NPCs but with a massive added incentive, which means that some of us (read: Amarr) are effectively removed from the plexing game entirely due to the comparatively harder time we have doing that bit.
Might change if we can somehow find 50-60 people with an interest in plexing, but if they come by way of the incentives then one must assume the Shakorites get the same size bump nullifying it.
As for why they haven't made NPC destruction the 'timer' .. blobs. Just dump 10-20 people into an unrestricted and the useless navy ships pop as soon as they spawn making the the spawn speed the new timer.
With incentives, one must assume it is split among those present thus countering the urge to blob (on paper), but since we have been doing it for epeen until now such a change will just result in majors closing a few seconds after last spawn .. could be timed to last approximately same time though, which is actually better than the mind-numbing "watch the clock" .. we'd need something else to do while waiting for spawns though
chatgris wrote:...Therefore, plexing will have no rewards...
As I understand it; LP for offensive plexing is taken from the iHub if and only if it has any LP invested. Otherwise LP is given as normal, counting towards system occupancy/sovereignty.
In short: Invested LP acts as both utterly useless carebear booster and as a buffer tank for the system.
Question about Kill-to-Cap made me think, what if:
- Plex caps when last NPC is killed.
- NPC spawns increase in number, waves and intensity (read: difficulty, as in elites) as numbers increase.
- LP for plex remains the same, only benefit for blobbing therefore is additional tags.
Would solve the Blob-to-Win in regards to plexes, but requires some more NPCs to be designed and for the NPC AI tweaks to be put in place or its just going to be speed tanking all over as normal. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:41:00 -
[17] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL! They were nerfed???? ...
Yeah, they were nerfed but it as a while ago.
- Missions used to be "standard" missions with LP/ISK assigned according to system security, a few speciality items and discounted ships.
- Then CCP rummaged around trying to make it more worth it and removed standings penalty for declining --> massively staggeringly overpowered boost.
- Then CCP did a collective /facedesk and reinstated standings penalty but added a few more speciality items (implants, navy hull revamp).
- Then agents across the board were normalized --> massive boost.
- Soon CCP removes discounted ships but adds infini-LP by way of plexes (and probably kills as they are destined to mess that one up ) |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
81
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 04:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
baah, dbl. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
|
Posted - 2012.05.08 15:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
And what if they push ahead with their null-styled consequences/incentives while postponing the infinitely more important mechanics changes (NPCs primarily)?
And what exactly do they expect that will work against the inevitable snowball effect, winning sides will have LP coming out of their arses .. invest in systems (invulnerable due to blobbage) .. get even more LP etc. (and no, datacores mean squat)?
And how do they plan on getting around the 30-40% difference in starting systems between Amarr/Shakorite?
Do they plan on remapping part of the area to make it more of a contest?
My fear is that the blog will just be transcripts of that presentation with notification that they are scheduling all the balance work for SoonGäó. If that happens, then even the abbadonification of the Punisher won't make up for the sheer hell of trying to outrun people who have been issued motorcycles after having ones own legs broken (difference in ease-of-plexing).
PS: Reason why many of us (or me at least) are so negative is because it smells a lot like the bits of null some of us joined FW to get away from. Lockouts, lol-cynojammers, increase in blobbage, EHP grinds and ISK for everything from eating to shitting (OK, that is not something I wanted to get away from ) and so forth.
And who said RP was boring! .. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
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Posted - 2012.05.08 16:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Who is the minnie asking all those relevant question in the QA phase of the presentation (he is the one who gets the last Q as well!)? His grasp of reason and common sense is almost Amarrian in scope! |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
82
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Posted - 2012.05.09 18:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
So the blog has finally arrived .. and dare I say it .. "I told you so".
Mistress Doom'n'Gloom takes the win .. no contest.
*Sadness* |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
84
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Posted - 2012.05.10 04:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
SigmaPi wrote:..Hell, I'd be 100% open to a temporary "don't plex the other guy's systems" until this comes out so that no one gets butthurt - we're all in this game for the fun, after all. I don't want to "win" the war - that ruins everything for everyone.
How magnanimous of you considering that you Shakorites need just the one person per plex whereas we, the Righteous Emancipators, need an entire damn gang
How did datacores help balance it again? When one side collapses and starves the market of a certain type of core, the price will go so high that the R&D cores becomes even more profitable than now .. invention costs might increase a tad (cores are not that big of an expense), but the inability for a collapsed side to sell their cores at anything but a loss acts as a kick in the balls on a person already on the ground .. awesome design.
There is absolutely nothing in the blog entry that acts as prevention against the snowball, quite the contrary.
The more warzone control, the better off in literally all aspects .. and the crap about plexing (contributing to warzone control) supposed to be the best income source .. even if all systems were reset you'd still be able to take in 25k+ LP in a few minutes compared the twenty minutes of a major which usually take more than one person.
Now add complete control of all space .. plus the umpteen percent LP gain across the board .. FarmVilleGäó here we go.
On the upside: LP for the two "winning" militia's will be so plentiful that the faction hulls/mods will blot out the suns and we might see some more of the very rare T2 ships (pretty much all T2 Matar cruiser hulls) as inventors essentially get their cores for free.
Allow me to reiterate my previous suggestion to Mr. Jagerblitzen: Convince CCP that they are well served by hiring and/or collaborating with a sociologist, psychologist or antrhopologist .. they clearly have no clue when it comes to human nature, even in a world of their making and under their complete control.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
84
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Posted - 2012.05.10 04:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:Well so far the new changes look good spent some time running plexes and poking around with the new FW frount page. Still need to look at the LP store and then try out some pvp and system fliping.
So any one want to help me try and figure out how fast you can flip systems on sisi?
If it is x5 VP needed, then you are looking 150 plexes or there about .. ideal system is one with a DT-shuffle stack of 20, leaving 130 .. divide that with 6 (3 plex every 30 mins) to get hours it will take.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
85
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Posted - 2012.05.10 13:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
BolsterBomb wrote:...There is always a reason to be on the losing side -- Isk
True .. except that being on the winning side gives you a % bonus to LP earned which will probably be far more than what is cut (ref: Incursion changes) AND the winning side gets a staggering discount on everything in their LP store.
In short: Even if missions LP/ISK per hour is halved, it will still be better than being in a collapsed militia with regards to earning potential.
Lil Nippy wrote:Wow good to see that the crying and whining is still going 30 pages strong....
What would you have us do? We are knee-deep in crap and now they want to add more so we are up to our waists .. if that isn't complaint worthy I don't know what is
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
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Posted - 2012.05.10 18:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Amarrian Slavetrader wrote:You guys are screwed. Technical evaluation.
:sadness: because it is true |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
87
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Posted - 2012.05.11 04:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:You do realize Hans was pro-reset ...
Reset is irrelevant, he should have dug his heels in when they said they wanted to implement draconian consequences without first addressing the damn balance .. since he didn't he must have an agenda as of yet undisclosed.
Always get this warm and fuzzy feeling (and a small psychotic tick) when a person I supported/voted/promoted turns out to be something entirely different
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
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Posted - 2012.05.11 17:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:... You are insane. /discussion
Insane .. awakened ..potato-tomato.
Just another politician wannabe corrupted by the system into which he is thrust .. had expected him to last for more than few weeks though, but that's the Matar for you
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
89
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Posted - 2012.05.11 18:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Heh. |
Veshta Yoshida
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Posted - 2012.05.13 06:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
What we are getting is FW as seen through the eyes of null .. since changes are 99% identical to the Fanfest presentation it must have been planned based on feedback from the pure null CSM .. in that light it is understandable that it reeks of what "they know".
Sad part is that it means the Devs responsible for it also has no experience with/in FW if they have leaned so heavily on the 'knowledge' of the CSM (and probably their beloved metrics).
Increasing insurance payouts for ships lost in FW space ... hmmmm. Actually a pretty nifty idea, proper pirates would come around more often and tedious ISK gathering to sustain the war effort would be marginalized .. I think I like that |
Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
94
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Posted - 2012.05.14 03:06:00 -
[30] - Quote
The current system was to supposedly to be a template for a sovereignty revamp, FW was once upon a time a null guinea pig .. but CCP chickened out.
Remember all the talk prior to Dominion about CCP wanting null sov to be lots of smaller objectives and multiple targets spread across entire systems and/or constellations .. now look at FW again. The only good thing about this coming ****-storm is that CCP will probably try to push/sell it to the null-bears only to be brutally shot down and mutilated in all digital media for wanting to destroy the sandbox (top entry on the null resist-change lobbys list of talking points) at which point we might be able to ret through to them
As for it being BlobVille;
Say you Shakorites have all station systems which will be a piece of PIE with the current mechanics (Actual FW balancing work wont hit until SoonGäó).
Our plexing crews have to mobilise out of high-sec -> meaning we need to be ships appropriate for the plexes we plan to take as we have no reships -> most likely cruisers for med/maj with 2-3 dessies/frigs for minors.
- No matter what size plex we enter, chances are we will be met with more numbers of appropriate size as you Shakorites have at most one jump to reship. You merely leave a few redundant (in fleet terms) frigs behind on timers while the horde moves in unison .. perpetually outnumbering the enemy .. it is the way it works now and lockouts will reinforce that trend.
We have had plenty of cooperation but it is kind of hard to motivate people to participate in a bicycle race when they can see the competition are issued mopeds .. yes, difference in ease-of-plexing is that great. Every week we put in is countered by a few days .. and that is when plexing crew numbers are even (which they only were 20 months ago or so). |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
96
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Posted - 2012.05.14 12:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
RougeOperator wrote:You can see there is a lot of people agreeing with each other that normally would troll the crap out of each other under different circumstances.
That might be the writing on the wall here.
Heh. We all just want a system that allows us to shoot each other in the face, beat our chests when we do well and smack each other when we fail ..
CCP's solution is a system in which the optimal play-style is to avoid combat at all costs unless its blob fights.
Go figure.
But fear not, for my brain just sent a memo claiming it has the answer to all out woes:
- Introduce diminishing returns and its reverse when it comes to plexing (already operating with a x1-4 modifier so put it to use)
(Optional)
- Delay principal FW changes until NPC, plexes and missions are 'balanced' and above is ready.
Intermediary result:
- An attacker will only be able to take all systems if anally retentive as the VP required has the warzone control modifier applied. You'd have to really, really hate the enemy to submit yourself to closing 600 plexes in those last systems ...
- An underdog, coming from close to zero can drop systems in 25% the time it would normally take .. the inverse of the warzone control modifier the enemy enjoys.
Final result:
- The two warzones each reach an equilibrium based on total available manpower/time rather than ability to blob at the right times.
- We all get to shoot each other in plexes as Godddess intended.
- Snowballs will melt as excessive momentum is stopped dead in its track.
- LP streams remain open for everyone as no side will ever be able to hold all space so missions and offensive plexes will always be available.
Go Team Brain!
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
97
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Posted - 2012.05.14 17:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:nice ideas ... however chimp can press the nuke button, but cannot build the nuke ... I am afraid u asking wrong persons to think.
No comment.
Cearain wrote:Why not:...
Because it does nothing to prevent snowballs and does nothing to keep the war going when a side collapses, unless of course you mean remove the modifier while still introducing a diminishing returns + inverse system ..
As for FW monopolies on new/old items .. Goddess yes. But not before missions are made challenging and the first series of iterations on LP in FW have come and gone. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
97
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Posted - 2012.05.14 18:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Aye, it is all in the name .. The Yoshida Estate has two prominent daughters.
"Shakorite" is a term I have started using after it became evident that the Matari people at large has allowed themselves to be brainwashed by the megalomaniac Tyrant Shakor and his Brutor thugs. As with most cults/sects the name of follower is taken after that of the leader to indicate to whom they are enthralled and that they have no free will.
What is RP?
Cookies'n'Cream wrote:...I'm not familiar with the lore....
Damn woman! Time to hit the books (or chronicles as the case may be) don't you think? Some good reads there. |
Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
98
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Posted - 2012.05.15 03:08:00 -
[34] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Bingo. No real mystery about that..
what an odd way of designing a game, basing major contentious balance decisions on wishful thinking/hope rather than applying thought/common sense.
House M.D. makes for an awesome TV show, endangering the life of patients (and sometimes outright killing them) in the hope of finding a 'cure' while praying that should it go sideways it will be possible to resuscitate .. but in game design? .. Hahahahahahaha .. guess all my loathing for the flip-flopper called Soundwave is justified
1. One side collapses.
Remaining pilots scratch dirt to find scrubs for sustenance.
Null blob comes to the rescue, farms the crap out of it and leaves post haste (ie. like every major western hemisphere military intervention/"help" the last 40 years). Only interest is ISK/LP and nothing else.
Side collapses, the remaining pilots now start scratching the dirt for scrubs on a full stomach and get to pray for the next wave of big spender "foreigners" *Yay*.
2. Full-on idiocy turns out to be ... surprise ... Idiocy.
FW is effectively killed off as more than half of all active/involved corps leave for pastures green (no one likes grinds).
By the time the metrics irrefutably show that the patient is indeed no longer with us and Soundwave rummages around his dirty sock drawer for the Hail Mary, null has had its third and final pass making it 'acceptable', containing less grinds, more pew and can be profitable with a bit of work.
If by random chance and blind luck the Hail Mary works and FW is actually fixed (18 months!) no one joins up as that which most joined up for to get away from in the first place was fixed earlier (Null).
@Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion.
@CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
101
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Posted - 2012.05.15 12:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:1) The new FW front page, if Iterated(and works) becomes arguably the most powerful Intel tool in game. that's a huge change in how we will play, the unwashed masses will start showing up weather us organised groups like it or not. As every one gets to know were the action is...
Mind elaborating on that? Are they changing what is shown in the tabs? Judging by the screenshot used in the blog all they have done is add a tab containing a great big warning label and the other tabs are called same as current.
PS: Anything has huge potential if iterated upon, but the devil is in the details. On paper the current map is the most powerul tool until one realises that a system can go from uncontested to vulnerable in the time it takes for the damn thing to register it .. just sayin'
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
101
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Posted - 2012.05.15 16:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:...The new UI is much more useful than the previous militia tabs ...
So the 'new' interface is the old interface with an added "FW for Dummies" entry .. but with possibility of snazzy stuff sometime SoonGäó (pretty much what they said about the current interface by the way), so as I expected..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:..It's just not going to happen now, deadlines are deadlines..
They have postponed or outright axed plenty of things in the past when common sense started slapping them around .. this new concept of pouring **** into the game with intent to see what sticks and then iterate on that is beyond idiotic. Who the hell makes mechanics designed to specifically to make 5-10k people lose interest in the product (CCP SW wants militias to collapse).
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Not sure if serious. First off, I hope to god / goddess/whatever that you donGÇÖt actually believe that rolling dice is a valid way of managing oneGÇÖs life.
Why not, beats the crap out of many of the alternative management ideas we see around us in the world today, at least a die roll is not selling an unattainable goal or some such ..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: ...Some just want to extend their role play into the forums GÇô thatGÇÖs totally fine too, but thereGÇÖs a separate forum for that, it has nothing to do with the CSM.
Hate to say it luv, but neither is this a place for CSM. This is Warfare&Tactics, the COAD for the unaligned if you will. My roleplay is MORE at home here than anything CSM related .. just sayin'
Either way, CCP stopped reading FW threads that does not call them out on blatant blunders ages ago .. so wouldn't worry about them not reading this. If they did read them then surely we would have had some indication that they were even aware they launched this thing called Factional Warfare .. and it has been almost three years with nary a mention of anything FW related except for a few bugs they managed to create when fixing something else entirely.
This latest "fix" is about as positive that proof can get that they have no clue about FW and stopped reading a long time ago as it does nothing to actually promote the war or foster the ever elusive "Good Fight" .. just the fact they have openly said that FW will now be used specifically as a testbed for future null changes ..
PS: RP in FW context now reflects badly on the community as a whole, does it? *insert image of octo-facedesk*
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Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
By the way, give input in the official SoonGäó threads"
FW: rebalancing NPCs and you.
FW: I-hub and system upgrades |
Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2012.05.16 13:12:00 -
[38] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Just to add... Many of the people that have joined so far have ground their rep from -5.0 with the appropriate faction to +0.5 to get in... Hate to say it but there are plenty of peeps interested in these new changes. Doomsdayers just need to take a step back... Or Register for the Apocolypse Afterparty on facebook... One of the 2. :P
As Mike said, the future of the Militia's will be written by the old leaders that stick around and the new people that come... And there are plenty of those new players...
Problem is that if you are right and the militias all get a massive surge of active pilots due to the new farm-friendly mechanics then the FW we have bled for and moaned about the past 3 years ceases to exist .. hell it will do so even without a surge due to the farms necessitating blobs to keep them pristine.
We are already close to having zero solo/small-gang fights these days .. in the years after it kicked off, majority of fights was <10 man per side with big romps on weekends only (almost) .. add your hundreds on all sides and no fight will be with less than 50 per side, lockouts take care of that as offense will always aim for superiority from the start due to not being able to reship.
I seriously miss the days when I could take a Punisher or Nomen out and fight 1-3 people in contests of skill and determination over the right to irrelevant VP .. "GF"'s were abundant then. Now you need to check Titan's for people waiting to drop you, keep a looooong list of all the enemy neutral boosters/scouts and then hope to find an enemy that doesn't outnumber you 4:1.
What I and most others have lobbied for since 2010 (current trend started back then) is mechanics that encouraged staying small and challenged the individual on an hourly/daily basis .. problem of course is that CCP didn't read anything FW related until last December onwards and at that point in time all people could talk about was how poor they were (FW LP devalued in preceeding year) and wouldn't it be great if there was pay involved and some effect of taking space ..
FW truly held promise beyond anything CCP has released since I started playing; Small scale fighting, ideal RP/PF/Lore platform .. purpose. What it is about to become is a blobby farm fest with almost no redeeming features .. even the once :awesome: size restriction on plexes has been killed of by the new pirate/navy hulls and T3 boosters.
R.I.P Factional Warfare. Thank you for teaching me which is the pointy end.
PS: How is that for Doom Calling? Do I win something!!!! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
108
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Posted - 2012.05.16 19:18:00 -
[39] - Quote
As I understand the idiocy coming, losing plexes in a non-upgraded system has zero impact on warzone control unless it actually flips. So as long as its a 'chaff' system you can wait for as long as you want (until flipping) before dropping a blob in there to counter with no adverse effects .. as they are still not killing of the DT shuffle, I reckon the post-DT action will be back in full force for defenders as they get no immediate benefit so will want to minimize time spent plexing.
PS: You just ran out 20 Amarr with a 50 man triple neut boosted fleet .. calling you Shakorites for blobbers in very appropriate |
Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
109
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Posted - 2012.05.16 20:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
The linked battle report? Spanning a whopping 5+ hours with Goddess knows how many reships on either side?
Welcome to the downside of basing ones intel/arguments on killboard statistics.
Not complaining about what war is but what it has become. Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.
In short: The fun has been sucked out of FW.
PS: Shakor is your lord and master .. and he has had his subjects re-educated for less than what you just did
PPS: When I said "just". I meant 20 minutes ago and was not referring to whatever links were provided. |
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
109
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Posted - 2012.05.16 20:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
Quoted for Truth.
Lets take the axe grinding to a place where CCP don't get nervous ticks from reading the entries.
Also, did they throw away the feedback from the similar threads they (and we) made just prior to forums being revamped or is their short term memory just that bad? |
Veshta Yoshida
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Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
114
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Posted - 2012.05.17 17:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:... Unless the defenders are willing to put 35 hours worth of counter plexing into this "chaff" system then the place will continue to be a likely target.
Hence my prediction that post-DT plexing will be in style again as it can offer up 7-8 hours worth of plexes in one fell swoop. Careful management of which systems are 'taken' can minimize the time needed to defend them ..
Jade Constantine wrote:...And through it all you were docked in the top station kourm rather than fleeting up with your militia-mates and I have to wonder if this is the reason you are finding FW experience now "ruined" rather than anything CCP are planning.
Busy managing my assets (read: running for the hills ) as CCP in all their idiocy wisdom refuses to address the balance issues they were first made aware of 3+ years ago and will proceed with their plan of station lock-outs and massively exploitable LP incentives/farms.
Most of my 5B in assets are deployed in the theatre, and with balance being non existent plus active numbers being skewed as per normal for season, the patch will push us out of LS regardless of how well/hard we may fight. Thanks to the new mechanics being designed to keep a downed militia down barring an insane influx of new blood chances are the Shakorites will "win" the war courtesy of Icelandic drunkards.
FW was ruined when CCP decided it was a good idea to ignore us for three years and then suddenly want to implement mechanics introduced/spearheaded by null and assorted FW noobs, that very few FW hard-liners wants/needs .. most of us are here to get away from the faggotry of null mechanics .. guess the joke is on us.
Bitter is for noobs. Sour is the new black! |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
114
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Posted - 2012.05.18 06:43:00 -
[43] - Quote
Vordak Kallager wrote:DEATH OF FW IMMINENT, CCP ARE IDIOTS, MINMATARAUS BLOBBASAURUS TOO STONK.
Patience, needed my morning coffee .. here we go!
Zarnak Wulf wrote:If one side gets curb stomped - absolutely pushed out of their systems - they still have a lot going for them. They would have:
70+ systems to plex
Lots of WT to shoot
Faction Items in huge demand.
Unfortunately this would have to be done with zero reships available within reasonable distance, unless one is content with pecking at the periphery which will likely be camped to hell and back (assuming curb stomped means the same to both of us, ie. one side numerically superior).
A collapsed militia is Cearain's worst nightmare coming true, PvE fits will not be optional as running to new plex is a lot easier/faster than having to reship umpteen jumps away.
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The winning side would have some disadvantages. Even though they would have huge LP discounts, they would have:
No offensive plexes to run
Few WT to shoot. My corp's KB has targets getting killed by 15+. That's a very poor LP split. It will get worse if any Amarr quit after said curb stomping.
The only source of LP generation might become, groan, mission running.
Faction Items have floor of market drop out.
1. Easily mitigated by having an alt running defensive plexes simultaneously, it can be done pretty much 100% AFK when its defensive .. as if it is designed for alts!. Farm those suckers!
2. Blob friendly mechanics means blobby environment, nothing new here. Let me direct you to a potential solution to the blob-to-win issue. Either way, LP-for-Kills will always have to be droplets to avoid alt-farming .. would personally have preferred a system where % module drop decreased as participants increased.
3. Not if you farm your plexes properly and manage which systems are left in enemy hands .. you could have missions with just a couple of jumps required, LP/Hour is insane when the system is gamed, more so with new mechanics (occupancy replaced with sovereignty).
4. Faction items bottomed out almost two years ago. Once you get the x2 modifier, navy ships are same price as now so you stand to get even more ISK as the modifier applies to everything .. x3-4 modifier is just pure luxury really. |
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